♥ Recs ♥

[mothwing]

In my quest to find loveplotless books about strong heroines an anon, therealsnape and holyschist came to my aid with these recs: 

• ? Val McDermid: the Lindsay Gordon mystery series (lesbian detective novels), but not A Deadline for Murder, in which there are two love plots woven into the main plot.

• Anne McCaffrey: Dinosaur Planet series (which, according to the Amazon review section seems to be about a male and a female character who do have some sort of romance plot, though, so I'm not sure I found the right book here), Freedom series (I seem to recall that the main point was the love plot between the male and the female lead in some kind of female slave scenario, but it's too long ago since the friend who read the series told me about this one, so I might be mistaken), and the Harper Hall trilogy (the first of which sounds delightful - a musician and dragons! It seems that only the first two of this trilogy are meant to be for the challenge, though, since the third one is about a male character). 

• Katherine Kurtz: The Legends of the Camber of Culdi (Camber being an Earl make this rec somewhat of a puzzler for me, though the Deryni series does sound interesting, being "set in a land analogous to medieval Wales" with magic - though maybe Anon meant a specific volume, like In the King's Service, for example, which appears to be about an Alyce); Legacy of Lehr which I think I remember seeing at some point during my my cat phase. 

• Marion Zimmer Bradley: Darkover novels centered around the Renunciates, basically  -the Renunciates being a group of matriarchic Amazons who revolted against the norms of their feudal society. Not being familiar with the Darkover series I'm not sure I could understand later instalments without prior knowledge, though. I'll try to get hold of the books from one of the MZB completist I know. Anyway, the recs: Hawkmistress!, The Shattered Chain, it's sequels Thendara House and City of Sorcery.

• Ellen Kushner's The Privilege of the Sword - coming-of-age story about Katherine becoming a swordsmistress and coming to terms with the intrigues and plots at her uncle's court.

• ? Tanya Huff's Valor books - military space opera on an infantry division from a staff sergeant's PoV. - Valor's Choice does have the heroine falling in lust with her Lt. at the very beginning of the book in a scene reminiscent of the Grey's Anatomy pilot and keeps having romantic thoughts about the superior under her care throughout the book, so I don't think this qualifies.

• Karen Cushman's medieval YA  (like Midwife's Apprentice - Alys, née Beetle is apprenticed to a midwife )

• Cindy Pon's Silver Phoenix - Ai Ling goes on a quest to free her father and find her destiny after discovering she is telepathic.

• Scott Westerfeld's Leviathan - alternate history version of WWI - fleeing prince Aleksander's and dressed-as-a-boy airman Deryn Sharpe's paths cross and they experience the outbreak of WWI. Not solely about a female character, but the book alternates between their views. 

• Marie Rutkowski's Cabinet of Wonders - Petra Kronos goes on a quest to Prague to get her father's stolen eyes back.

Comments

[rymenhild.livejournal.com]

City of Sorcery is a book that does not exist. That is, I refuse to believe that the characters I love would act that way, so clearly they don't and the book is a cruel mockery of Darkover. The other three Darkover novels you named are among my favorites, though.

[mothwing.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the heads up. :)

[rymenhild.livejournal.com]

PS. Hawkmistress was my first Darkover, and works perfectly well as a stand-alone. You don't need background for Chain, and for Thendara House, the only absolutely necessary prerequisite is Chain. (Forbidden Tower might also be useful, though.)

[mothwing.livejournal.com]

I was planning on reading the Renunciate ones in order and Hawkmistress as a stand-alone, so I'll think try to read Forbidden Tower first, then.

[holyschist.livejournal.com]

The Freedom books have a major subplot involving the female lead and the male lead, and they are also a pile of problematic in other ways. I have not slogged through the Dinosaur Planet books--they look awful--but I have fundamental issues with aspects of that universe (basically--there's a genetically engineered minority, the heavyworlders, who are then treated like crap and the narrative and heroines pretty much go with it because the heavyworlders are, indeed, ~barbaric~. "Good" heavyworlders are those who look and act more like lightworlders.

The first two Harper Hall books are pretty good--I think McCaffrey's best books, actually--there is a romance, but I don't recall it being a huge plot point. The third is primarily about a male character; it was okay. They have some flaws, but overall are pretty fun.

I think you can read The Shattered Chain and sequels without prior Darkover familiarity--that may have been where I started. Darkover has a ton of problematic aspects, but it was kind of the fiction of my teenage id. (I wouldn't call most Darkovan society Gorean--it is more an exaggeratedly feudal patriarchy--but I would not be surprised if the Drytowns are based on Gor, and I think one of the Renunciate books may have had some "freeing women from the Drytowns" plot...I don't remember.)

Some other ideas (mostly YA, because that's mostly what I read...):

Ellen Kushner's The Privilege of the Sword doesn't really have a romance. The heroine has a bit of a romantic friendship with another girl about her age, and a bit of a crush on a boy about her age, but nothing comes of either of those--the book is really about her learning to be a duelist.

I am hesitant to recommend Elizabeth Moon these days, but a lot of her space opera heroines have no love plot or only a very low-key side romance. Her fantasy heroine Paksenarrion is a celibate paladin (although those books were, iirc, very grimdark and also very D&D-inspired; I didn't like them much).

For young adult, Tamora Pierce's Protector of the Small quartet heroine Kel has a few crushes and brief romances, but ends up single at the end; the books are really about her career.

The first few of Tanya Huff's Valor books, Torrin has a couple flings, but no serious romance. The main plot is military SF. I didn't love them, but they were okay.

Karen Cushman's medieval YA novels don't have romance, although they are all very similar.

IIRC, Cindy Pon's Silver Phoenix didn't have an overt romance, although it's an implied possibility.

Scott Westerfeld's Leviathan doesn't have romance for either its female or male protagonist. I haven't read Behemoth yet, and I have a distressing feeling that when Deryn reveals that she's a girl, there will eventually be romance. I rather hope not, though.

Philip Pullman's The Golden Compass doesn't have a romance, although the sequels do (I love TGC; I'm lukewarm on the others).

Nnedi Okorafor's Zarah the Windseeker has no romance, although it is also juvenile fiction (the protagonist is old enough that she might be given a crush in a different book, though).

Marie Rutkowski's Cabinet of Wonders doesn't have a romance; I haven't read the sequel.

[mothwing.livejournal.com]

basically--there's a genetically engineered minority, the heavyworlders, who are then treated like crap and the narrative and heroines pretty much go with it because the heavyworlders are, indeed, ~barbaric~. "Good" heavyworlders are those who look and act more like lightworlders
Oh, good grief.

Ellen Kushner's The Privilege of the Sword
Tanya Huff's Valor books
Karen Cushman's medieval YA
Cindy Pon's Silver Phoenix
Scott Westerfeld's Leviathan
Marie Rutkowski's Cabinet of Wonders

Sounds good, I'll stick them up there.

Tamora Pierce I excluded that one from my list because of those romances, but maybe they played a greater role in my memory of the novels than they really did, as I did the sequels of The Golden Compass - though the The Golden Compass itself wins, its true. Though thinking of it now, the first four books in the Circle of Magic series might make it, I don't seem to remember any loving going on there.

[holyschist.livejournal.com]

I thought the heavyworlders were the most interesting aspect of the Planet Pirates books, but terribly treated by the narrative. I'm not sure how much of a role they play in the Dinosaur Planet books, or if the narrative does any better with them.

Cabinet of Wonders has a pretty young protagonist, but I found it really fun because it was 16th century clockpunk, and you just don't see much of that.

Yeah, I think the first 4 Circle of Magic books didn't have a romance. Neither did Melting Stones, which was my favorite so far except Will of the Empress. Pierce varies--some of her books have a major romance plot or three, others don't. (Kel, I admit--I don't find any of her crushes very convincing, so I tend to ignore them. I was so glad she ended up single.)

[mothwing.livejournal.com]

I thought the heavyworlders were the most interesting aspect of the Planet Pirates books, but terribly treated by the narrative. I'm not sure how much of a role they play in the Dinosaur Planet books, or if the narrative does any better with them.
I'll see, hopefully things get fairer.

Cabinet of Wonders has a pretty young protagonist, but I found it really fun because it was 16th century clockpunk, and you just don't see much of that.
The summary alone sounds really cool! Now I only need to hunt it down. I wish our libraries were better stocked.

Pierce varies--some of her books have a major romance plot or three, others don't.
That she does - and when she does do romance I tend to dislike it, though I think the only plot that really annoyed me enough to skip pages was the Alanna/Jon thing. Boy, was I glad when it ended.

[holyschist.livejournal.com]

Alanna/Jon bugged the crap out of me. It just had too many controlling/abuse of power overtones. I think we were supposed to find it romantic in the second book and go "OMG, what happened to Jon!" in the third, but I didn't really see much difference between book 2 and book 3 Jon--he was controlling in both of them.

(I actually have general Jon issues, but...get me started on Tortall and I will dissect the books for thousands of words. It's because I love them so, or I wouldn't even notice all the flaws and inconsistencies.)

I don't find most of Pierce's romances very convincing or compelling, but usually she has enough career-plot going on that I can ignore them. And I do love career-plots--there are not enough of them in YA with female protagonists.

[mothwing.livejournal.com]

I also love the driven-ness of Pierce's characters, which is why I made it through the Alanna series at all, in spite of me tossing it across the room during the Jon parts. Couldn't believe when I found out that Pierce had originally intended for Alanna to marry Jon and only changed that later. D=

I do like that she doesn't end up marrying her teenage lover, though, that happens far too rarely (and marrying your second teenage love isn't necessarily much better, JKR!)

[holyschist.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's one of the things I like about some of Pierce's books...although Aly marries her first love (a freakish crow) as a teenager and starts having babies right away, and Daine shacks up with her teacher at age 16, and both of those relationships bugged the heck out of me.

...which is probably why I tend to reread Alanna and Kel, but not so much the other Tortall books. Especially Kel.

Seriously, I have written thousands of words at my fandom journal and over chat lately dissecting everything that drives me bonkers about these books, heh. And yet they are some of my favorite books ever.

[(Anonymous)]

The Camber-cycle (the one which takes place during the time of the living Camber of Culdi) has a main protagonist, Evaine, who is Camber's daughter, and a sophisticated, educated female character with an own strong, interesting plot throughout the cycle. As she already is married, there is little romance involved. Books of the later time periods tend to deal with Kelson's need for a bride and offspring.

The three main female characters in the Dinosaur series have few romantic issues, one of them is in an established relationship, that's pretty much all there is to it. The other two are single and not exactly hunting for partners. There is some romance in the Freedom series, but easy to read past.

I wouldn't even mention Gor and Darkover in the same sentence, not to speak of calling Darkover in any way Gorean. That's fundamentally misunderstanding both 'verses. It's again simply a feudalistic society dealing with stringencies set by the premise itself. To understand that reading at least one book out of each time period of Darkover indeed does help a lot.

[mothwing.livejournal.com]

The Camber cycle sounds delightful, especially the setting - and I'll see if it meets challenge criteria or not. :) Even if it doesn't it does sound like an interesting read.

I wouldn't even mention Gor and Darkover in the same sentence, not to speak of calling Darkover in any way Gorean. [...] It's again simply a feudalistic society dealing with stringencies set by the premise itself.
Oh, ok! I based my description on reviews I read alone, and one enthusiastically drew parallels. Not being terribly familiar with Gor (I only ever read the first novel a couple of years back), it seemed to check out, but I must have mis-understood something there.

[holyschist.livejournal.com]

The FeministSF Wiki has a pretty good overview of gender issues on Darkover:

http://wiki.feministsf.net/index.php?title=Darkover_series

(I am personally...not convinced by how everything is handled, particularly the queer issues. MZB had quite a lot of baggage, and it sometimes shows, although not as badly in Darkover as elsewhere. I'm also not convinced that all the sexism necessarily develops from the premise--I am generally skeptical of "fantasy/SF world X is super-sexist because of HISTORY" as an argument--certainly the Dry Towns are exaggerated to the point of Gorean ridiculousness, probably on purpose. MZB was quite aware of Gor and wrote a non-Darkover novel directly in response to it.)

[mothwing.livejournal.com]

Oh, I read that summary when looking this series up, and look, they also compare it to Gor ("The Dry-Towns are a combination of Muslim society and John Norman's Gor novels, with women literally kept in chains and owned by men."), I had forgotten all about that, seems not only to be that one reviewer. Also, the degree of sexism doesn't sound like something that's within the ordinary enough to be unintentional.

Warrior Woman I read in my teens and while I loved it, I can't really remember much about her way of dealing with gender. I also didn't get far enough in my Norman reading to draw anything but the most the obvious parallels there.

I'm also not convinced that all the sexism necessarily develops from the premise--I am generally skeptical of "fantasy/SF world X is super-sexist because of HISTORY" as an argument
Depends on whose history - especially in Fantasy novels it's fair to assume that unless the sexism present in the worlds has a reason within the world's history it's part of the implied author's views and prejudices.

[holyschist.livejournal.com]

The Dry Towns are a very small subset of Darkovan society, and not really integrated into the main society--they don't even figure in most of the books. So I think that's where the "Darkover is not like Gor" comes from--the rest of Darkover isn't.

Sexism in the rest of Darkover is more typical feudal "women have limited rights" with a dose of "telepathy breeding program" thrown in. In some of the books there's an explicit argument that as long as telepathy is so vital to Darkovan society, women will never be truly equal. MZB was absolutely addressing sexism and patriarchy all over the place in the books; I don't always agree with her conclusions (part of that, I think, is the time she was writing in, and part of it is her...iffy views on some topics).

Anyway, at least MZB was a whole lot better writer than Norman, and certainly she had quite different motives for portraying sexism. The Darkover books are really interesting, and can be a lot of fun if you're in the right mood. I like TODAY I AM A DARKOVER BOOK for a silly (but disturbingly accurate) summary, although it's probably funnier after you've read some of them.

Depends on whose history - especially in Fantasy novels it's fair to assume that unless the sexism present in the worlds has a reason within the world's history it's part of the implied author's views and prejudices.

I don't like using Earth history--and usually an incorrect, even-more-sexist-than-reality version thereof--to justify prejudice/injustice in a fantasy world. Just because real feudal societies were sexist doesn't mean a fantasy feudal society has to be. Feudalism is built on classism, not sexism. If an author wants to set up a sexist fantasy society for some reason, fine--but I'd rather they justify it in-world than with appeals to (misconceptions of) real history. Real history is a lot more complicated and varied than a lot of SFF authors seem to think.

[mothwing.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link, I am dying over her, reading "Anne Bishop does not CARE what you think" (http://www.sarahpin.com/2008/05/01/anne-bishop-does-not-care-what-you-think/). I'll read the Darkover one next when I've recovered.

I do remember MZB simplifying a lot, and I tended to dislike the way she writes queer people, but, again, I'll have to reread the books to get a better view on that.

Feudalism is built on classism, not sexism. If an author wants to set up a sexist fantasy society for some reason, fine--but I'd rather they justify it in-world than with appeals to (misconceptions of) real history. Real history is a lot more complicated and varied than a lot of SFF authors seem to think.
This bugs me a lot with all the books set in versions of medieval Europe, and it's not as though stuff about that period is simply unknowable! And there are reasosns for why medieval Europe was the way it was, too, it didn't just sort of happen (like, you know, the church and its influence was kinda important)!

[holyschist.livejournal.com]

Snarp is very funny!

I think with MZB--there is a lot of hesitation to bring her personal life into discussion of her books, but I think it's actually highly relevant. Her personal issues show up all over her books.

First, she was married to a pedophile and there's evidence that she may have known and covered for him. Some of her books come off as apologia for pedophilia. The Catch Trap (which has a really, really problematic portrayal of pedophilic gay incest--I couldn't even finish it) is where these issues show up the most, but they show up in Darkover, too. She probably had at least one relationship with a woman for a while and always had queer leanings--but I believe rejected that aspect of her life when she began identifying strongly as Christian, and I don't think she was ever really comfortable with her sexuality--which, I think, explains a lot about how she handles queer women in the Darkover books. I wouldn't call her a "feminist" writer, either, not really.

So I don't know--I am always hesitant to recommend Darkover. The books are incredibly variable in quality, they have a lot of awesome aspects, they have a lot of really problematic aspects. They are very much a product of their period of feminism. I loved them as a teenager, but I'm kind of afraid to go back and read most of them now.

[holyschist.livejournal.com]

I think the Silver Phoenix blurb must mean "romance" in the sense of "sweeping adventure." It's romantic like wuxia, not like love romance (I would not be surprised if the sequel ends up going there, though).

Leviathan is about Deryn as much as Alex--it alternates between their points of view.

[mothwing.livejournal.com]

Aaaah, I was wondering, because given the image of the young lady clinging to the young gentleman on the author's rather pink site did raise that expectation. ;)

As for Leviathan - I see. The summaries I read tended to start with his view, so I got the impression that it was more important.

[holyschist.livejournal.com]

I think the author likes that style of art, but the book's not really like that. The very pink hardbound cover, I suspect, put off some readers who would have enjoyed it.

(Actually, the thing that stood out the most for me was the food description--which is not really my thing, but it was well done and a lot of readers loved that aspect. And it was a nice bit of characterization.)

The thing I did not like about SP--and this is a personal thing--was how much of the threat to the heroine was sexually colored. I really dislike that in a YA novel, even when there's a reason for it, and I'm not so fond of it in adult novels, either. So I would suggest proceeding with caution. Pon is one of those authors (like Malinda Lo) where I liked the potential of the first novel but am really looking forward to the second more.

Leviathan--I think it's a pretty even split--they're on opposite sides of the war, so they give different perspectives on events. Haven't read Behemoth yet, although flipping through, it looks like some more female characters show up, which pleases me. Westerfeld is in love with slang, which can be irritating on occasion. (I have some ambivalence about Westerfeld--I love his ideas, but I don't find many of his characters convincing, and I really wish he just wouldn't write romance at all, since he can't do it. So I am hoping he doesn't go there with Leviathan.)

[mothwing.livejournal.com]

Well, the site seemed to suggest that it wouldn't really do well for my quest to find loveless books, at least, but it's good to know that that aspect is only skin- or rather cover-deep.

Leviathan sounds interesting, regardless of it's challenge potential. I'll try to get hold of it. :)

[holyschist.livejournal.com]

I would not expect the Phoenix books to remain romance-free in the future, but I doubt the romance will dominate the plot. SP is very much a quest/adventure book, with extra food.

[ysilme]

I must confess I don't know most of your authors, or only by bookspine in my partner's collection ;o), since I'm not much of a Fantasy reader. Darkover and particularly the Sisters of the Sword therein have been one of my first and strongest reading loves.

I could ask partner for more detail on Anne McCaffrey, if you like and tell me what you're looking for. He has her complete works, AFAIK, and knows them rather well (and remembers it, too, having an encyclopedic mind).

[mothwing.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, that'd be great. :) What I'm looking for - I noticed a while ago that all books about female characters specifically always, always contain love plots, though this is not true necessarily about books about male characters, so I'm trying to hunt down books in which this is not the case. The above list is what people recommended as novels specifically about female characters without love plots - mostly to see if there are any, I don't think that books in which this is not the case are automatically reprehensible.

So I am wondering whether in any of McCaffrey's books the main character falls in love or in lust with another character. If not, congratulations, they beat the challenge. :D

[ysilme]

I just asked him. He says he thinks he has read all books at least once, and the also says that romance and/or lust plays a part in most cases. Not as the main plot, but mostly as part with a certain importance.

What exactly do you mean with the "always contain love plots" - at all, or do you mean as the main plot?

[mothwing.livejournal.com]

Ah, ok, thanks. I should probably take down the above ones, then, though I suppose I'd better read them to see for myself.

I really mean at all, as long as they feature the main character. This doesn't have to be the main plot, but usually, there is a love plot featuring the main character somewhere, and I'm trying to hunt down books in which this is not the case.

[ysilme]

I'll keep my eyes open then. I'm currently reading rather much, thanks to my newfound bookcrossing hobby, though it's mystery novels mostly. My current book might qualify, despite not having a female heroine, though - I'm just reading "The remains of the day". I love the movie very much, but the book is a bit different in plot, I think.

[mothwing.livejournal.com]

The Remains of the Day is one of my favourite books (it does have a love plot, though, if not a particularly overt or fulfilled one, poor things)! I only recently discovered bookcrossings, and I'm through with my own pile I can't wait to explore our local bookcrossing shelf. ♥

[ysilme]

it does have a love plot, though, if not a particularly overt or fulfilled one, poor things I've just read about 40 pages since my last reply, and now I must concede to that, too. Mpf.

I only recently discovered bookcrossings Are you registered at the site? I'm neckarhex there.