Supernatural

[mothwing]

The fight between good and evil as told from the refreshing POV of two angsty built white dudes in their twenties. So. Um. Who is this show for?

It's as though they marinated an eighties cop show in current slash fandom for a while and this is what came up. There are these two angsty brothers in their tweens who fight demons, and angst about the (dead) women in their lives, go to hell, and angst, and get tortured, and angst, and torture others, and angst, and kill boatloads of innocent people, and angst. Later on, they acquire an angelic side-kick, and the show seems to be fully aware of the slash potential, at least I find it hard to explain away the way scenes between these three are filmed otherwise.

Much like in most corners of manslash fandom, there just are no female main characters in the show, and if there are women, they are used as bait, as window dressing, as a cause, as a reward, and usually to scream because they can scream at a higher pitch. Every female character is a "bitch" or a "whore", and they all come between the brothers and therefore ultimately need to be destroyed. But they are demons, so that is fine.

The series seems to be aware of the fact that it has a fandom, but also seems to think that they're a bunch of overexcited morons. So... is this aimed at self-loathing or ~self-ironic~ white female slash fandom or really misogynistic white gay men (and neither seems unlikely, given that the series seems to imply that one of the male leads is bisexual)?

Internet, please explain. 

Comments

[ysilme]

and usually to scream because they can scream at a higher pitch
*loool*

I have absolutely no clue otherwise, also since I don't know it at all. From own experience, though I know that one is sometimes drawn to the most absurd things without any possible explanation... like, I still don't really know why I love to be in the literal world of 18th century (British) naval warfare, am sometimes obsessed with learning all the minutiae of that trade and at one point had a surprisingly comprehensive vocabulary of German vs. British seafaring terms... women mostly were only decorative there as well, so far as they existed at all.

[mothwing.livejournal.com]

I like reading/watching stuff whose target audience I'm really not, but in this case, I can't even figure out who that's supposed to be. o.O

Naval warfare I could never really get into, but Crocky is a fan. I always got easily confused by the rank system and I like my legs firmly onl land IRL too much to get into the setting. I get seasick even reading about boats.

[lordhellebore]

I love to be in the literal world of 18th century (British) naval warfare

You are? You become more awesome each time I read a comment by you. So . . . Hornblower? Aubrey/Maturin books? Please say yes? ;)

[ysilme]

*high fives* You too? *vbg*

Yessss to your question! I started at age 14 or so with Hornblower, then discovered Bolitho, then Drinkwater, and in 1992 when I went to Paris POB with all its deligths. Am proud owner of a new copy of Lavery's "Nelson's Navy" and other assorted research material. I haven't read all series/authors of the genre yet, though we own most of them (fiction, anyway - I infected my darling dearest very thoroughly soon into our relationship), and have still many POBs to read - my English wasn't sufficient to grasp everything when I had them first, I didn't like the translation well enough, so I stopped with vol. 5 and to wait until my English improves. Last year I went back to reading Age of Sail mostly, until my Tolkien addiction got the better of me and currently holds me in its clues.

You become more awesome each time I read a comment by you.
That I give you wholeheartedly back. :o)))

[lordhellebore]

Ah, yes, Bolitho *pets her copies* I haven't heard of Drinkwater, though, so I shall investigate. POB - I'm not done there by far either ;)

Sadly, I have no research material yet - I fear the obsession is not that big, or rather: other obsessions (Tolkien, HP, mental illness and disability research) have always taken the money away. I plan on getting some, though, but mostly, I've stuck to the internet for now.


That I give you wholeheartedly back. :o)))

I interpret this situation as a socially acceptable moment to as you if you'd like to be LJ friends ;)

[ysilme]

I interpret this situation as a socially acceptable moment to as you if you'd like to be LJ friends ;)
It'd be an honour! *curtseys* :oD

I fear the obsession is not that big, or rather: other obsessions (Tolkien, HP, mental illness and disability research) have always taken the money away.
I hear you on that! I'm in the lucky situation that we're two to collect "obsession" material, and there is still much to look forward to. I've just started getting myself the History of Middle Earth, volume by volume.

And in the meantime, the internet is, indeed, a most awesome source.

[lordhellebore]

HomE!!! I've got three volumes, but of course I need all twelve <3 I can't wait to read The Lays of Beleriand.

*adds you*

[ysilme]

I started with vol. 12 as I have this ongoing obsession with Elrond, and seeing that vol. 4 and 10 were only to be had second hand, I just ordered them. I usually have this kind of bad luck that when I start to collect something it soon goes out of print or is sold out... we're also having the first two vols in the German translation.

Sorry, Moth, I hope you don't mind us overmuch chattering away here in your journal... *offers a plate of sunday cookies*

[mothwing.livejournal.com]

No no no, it's always great to see LJ friends get on so well. ♥♥ you guys. Chatter away! *hugs*

Thanks for the cookies! *munches*

[rinkafushi.livejournal.com]

(I hope you don't mind random people indruding in your entries, but I found this a very interesting question.)

I think Supernatural shifted a lot in his targeted audience. The first three seasons were marketed with the catch phrase "Scary just got sexy" and had those two guys be randomly seducing the girl-of-the-week and do manly things like killing and driving and fighting, and pretty much made most female characters so bland that they were easy to be fill-in characters for self-projection (for example Jo, who gets her damsel in distress moments and banter with Dean, or Bela). As far as I remember the only slash fanbase back then shipped the brothers. That changed with season four and Castiel, of course, and also that was the time when the show became much more self-aware and ironic, in a way. Even if they might not have intended to specifically please the slash fanbase with the introduciton of Castiel, they surely noticed it and upped it to eleven.

In that episode where they are visiting the Supernatural-Convention, they have the panel "Homoerotic subtext in the novels" (between the brothers, as Castiel isn't a character in the books at that point), you get a good idea of just how self-aware they are. While the characters react with "That's just sick.", the actors and writers love to bait the fanbase with it, especially now with Castiel (things like "We are going to pay their relationship lip service" and other gems). I mean, the series has an in-series slasher fangirl who writes Dean/Sam fanfiction.

I guess you can say that in the beginning, the show was just aimed at straight female watchers who were intrigued by the whole supernatural aspect but wished for something scarier and grittier than the Twilight franchise, but over time it developped into a show specifically catering to the fanbase - mainly slasher fans, but also vague enough to please a more mainstream audience. You have both boys get a bit of family life and relationships with females, you have the tons of subtext (also with that whole Luzifer and Michael thing), you have totally insane meta episodes where no fourth wall exists whatsoever, and then again you have episodes filled with drama who want to be all srs bsns.
In a way this show is a good example what happens when multiple showrunners extend a five season show into nine seasons and always have an eye on the way the fanbase reacts in order to shift the direction of the show to their pleasure.

The showrunner of season seven was a female, and she was hated a lot in the fanbase, since she killed Castiel off, only to bring him back having a wife (and amnesia). The current eighth season caters a lot to the Destiel fans again, and, well, they enjoy it.

[mothwing.livejournal.com]

Hey! No, finding random comments is always fun. :)

I think Supernatural shifted a lot in his targeted audience. The first three seasons were marketed with the catch phrase "Scary just got sexy" and had those two guys be randomly seducing the girl-of-the-week and do manly things like killing and driving and fighting, and pretty much made most female characters so bland that they were easy to be fill-in characters for self-projection (for example Jo, who gets her damsel in distress moments and banter with Dean, or Bela).
Yeah, I got that vibe - it seemed as though it was supposed to be all gritty and hypermasculine, but that does seem to change later.

Their in-show references to their fandom is what confuses me most.
On the one hand, the catering to their female slasher fanbase is rather blatant, but on the other hand the show seems to have rather a lot of contempt for especially their female fanbase, which seems an odd reaction to have to a fanbase.

[rinkafushi.livejournal.com]

Aah, I'm glad then!

Soulless!Sam randomly working out shirtless is all I say. Also, I think the show took the single manly tear up to perfection. But as said before, the later seasons mock this we-are-manlier-than-manly thing a lot, I mean Dean has his Dr. Sexy soap opera guilty pleasure and Sam is a huge geek anyways.

Becky's episode last season where she brainwashed Sam into marriying her was... weird, yes. Because she was a pretty positive character so far (and she is a stand-in for a part of the fandom). The actors and writers are actually rather sweet to the fans, though, and have a lot of humour. I really wonder why they suck so much at inventing strong female characters in the show, though. Season 8 is better, though, since Tiger Mommy and Charlie are probably the first genuinely likeable female characters in the series with multiple episodes (more or less, at least).

[mothwing.livejournal.com]

Also, I think the show took the single manly tear up to perfection.
Heh, now you mention it, BOY did they!

Because she was a pretty positive character so far (and she is a stand-in for a part of the fandom).
Not so sure about the positive. Her projection of her feelings for Sam has clearly reached astral Snapewive-levels even before she does that. It also makes me wonder about how the show sees its fandom.
It's obvious that there would be fans like Becky because they're in every fandom, but she's shown as so deranged and over the top and treated with contempt, which is a weird thing to do for a fandom-stand-in. The gay LARPers in 5.09 are far better off than she is and even get to save the day, after a fashion. Becky does tell them about the colt, but she seems to be astral-dating Sam at the end of that episode.

The actors and writers are actually rather sweet to the fans, though, and have a lot of humour.
Yes, I'd heard about that! It seems to me as though they're bringing the fandom appreciation and respect that the show doesn't have.

Season 8 is better, though, since Tiger Mommy and Charlie are probably the first genuinely likeable female characters in the series with multiple episodes (more or less, at least).
Oh, I'm not that far yet, I'll be curious. :)

[rinkafushi.livejournal.com]

Aah, I see what you mean, yes. I don't think she was meant to represent the entire female fanbase, but a sarcastic (and yes, rather harmful) poke at the, uhm, over-enthusiastic fans. As I said, the actors are pretty cool with the fans, but they do sometimes get uncomfortable at the audacity of some fans. Especially Jensen and Misha have do deal with the extreme Destiel fans nowadays, and they also have the problem that some do IRL-shipping (J² as in Jared/Jensen was a big thing, too, I don't know if it still is). I think Becky was mocking that especially - fans who aren't able to seperate fiction from reality. In a way Sam and Dean are at that Con in the same position as the actors IRL.
Given how the cosplay couple was handled, I don't think the show writers really disdain their fanbase, but yes, it would have been nice to have a nice (and normal) female fan around, too.

[lordhellebore]

and the show seems to be fully aware of the slash potential,

Oh, they definitely are; they bacame aware if it after a few seasons and now they're playing with it constantly. If they weren't, there wouldn't be lines like "Sorry, you have me confused with the other angel. You know, the one in the dirty trench coat who's in love with you."

And basically, what rinkafushi said.

[mothwing.livejournal.com]

Yes, you can also see that the ways they shoot scenes between the fandom favourites. All ~lingering looks~ and people standing really close together.

Their reactions to their fans in-universe are odd, tho. Or to put it another way - in the eyes of the writers, why does Becky have to be such an idiot while the LARPing morons still save the day? It's weird.

[lordhellebore]

The lingering looks especially Castiel shoots Dean are hilarious.

I can't answer your question, unfortunately :/ It's not making so much sense, is it?

[mothwing.livejournal.com]

Hah, going by the tumblr fandom of that show I thought that those two were the main characters because 98% of posts are gifsets of lingering Destiel looks. And the show does seem to be aware of that and milking it, too. ("See, he has this weakness. He likes you." - Uh-hu, series, "likes").

No, it doesn't make sense. I'd have hoped that a series that self-aware'd treat its fanbase with more respect. But given their track record with their female characters and general misogyny issues I guess it's not surprising that they don't? IDEK. It's why I don't understand who this is for, because this in-universe hostility at women seems odd if it's not a sort of "keep out" sign. It seems more self-aware than in old schooly adventure novels in which women simply don't exist at all.